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Full Tilt Has a Problem 
14th-Aug-2008 10:23 am
Messenger of DOOM
I don't play much on Full Tilt. I don't have rakeback, and I have no way of obtaining rakeback, so I have no impetus to play there. I now have even fewer reasons to play there: It's getting nigh on impossible to get your money out of Full Tilt.

Full Tilt has these methods of cashing out for Americans: Bank Transfer, Ultra Prepaid Phone Cards, and a (paper) Check. Bank transfer, or eChecks, has been down for some time. I don't need nor want a phone card. And currently Full Tilt is having extreme difficulties with paper checks.

I've written in the past that if the day came when you couldn't get money off the sites play would stop. This has not happened. Instead, players are complaining, and FT is likely scrambling to find a processor. There is a solution (indeed, what I'm going to write below will occur someday in the future for Stars, too) but no one in the U.S. is going to like it. First, though, let me describe the genesis of the problem.




The DOJ wants to stop online gambling, especially sportsbetting. If anyone disagrees with me here, please just move on and read some other blog. And to point something out this has been the stance of the DOJ since the Clinton era so it's a staff mentality, not a leadership dictum. (I do agree, though, that the current DOJ leadership is very anti-online gambling.)

The DOJ has finally figured out that the Achilles heal for online sportsbooks is the payment processing industry. It is clearly illegal for a payment processing company to process payouts for an online sportsbook. The DOJ had been targeting the sportsbetting companies, and their executives who were foolish enough to change planes at DFW or JFK.

Sometime over the last two years someone at the DOJ realized that if winners couldn't cash out then they wouldn't use the services. So the DOJ over the last year or so set up accounts at a sportsbetting site(s), gambled, won or lost, and then cashed out. When they received the checks they determined the company that sent the check, seized the funds, and told the company that they had two choices: no more business with online gambling and you give us copies of your agreements with those companies and agree to testify against them or you can look forward to some time at ClubFed along with having your business destroyed.

There's no way any company is going to want to fight the federal government, and they capitulated. And I think FullTilt (which likely wasn't a target) has been caught in the crossfire.




The payment processing industry is small. The companies involved either now know that dealing with online gambling makes them persona non grata with the DOJ or will soon know that. Sooner or later this will impact PokerStars, too, and their payment processor located about 50 miles from me will not be doing business with them. That day could be today, a month from today, or a year from today but that day is coming. I'm sure PokerStars knows that--the management there is anything but dumb. FullTilt was just unlucky enough to be using the wrong payment processor at the wrong time.

Does that mean that there will be no way to get money off the sites? Definitely not. Nothing prevents FullTilt from either issuing their own checks (drawn on a bank in Ireland) or using an Irish payment processor. Of course, that means instead of it taking 1-5 days for a check to clear you and I will be waiting 5-10 weeks. Large customers can get wire transfers, and those too will continue. But for John Lowstakes the days of cashing out, getting a check in the mail one week later, and having the funds usable in the bank a couple of days after that are ending.

Maybe FullTilt will be lucky and find another processor in the US or perhaps FullTilt will be the first firm to use an overseas processor. We'll know the answer to that in a few days. There's no question, though, that this is yet another hurdle for online poker and this will be another factor lessening new blood finding their way to the sites.
Comments 
14th-Aug-2008 05:26 pm (UTC)
What is this "cash-out" thing people keep talking about?

I just keeping sending the sites my money.

14th-Aug-2008 07:31 pm (UTC)
Exactly. As long as there is still a way to deposit, I'm good to go.
14th-Aug-2008 05:43 pm (UTC)
Isn't it absurd that it would take 5-10 weeks for
a foreign check to clear in this day of high-speed,
digital, electronic communications?

14th-Aug-2008 07:45 pm (UTC) - I moved ...
a couple of grand from my credit union to the Bank of America via cashier's check. My CU confirmed that the check had cleared the Fed two days later. BofA put a 10-day hold on it when I deposited, and would neither confirm nor deny that they actually had my money until the hold expired. They hold on to it as long as the regulations [which were crafted when there were still jets flying tons of paper to the feds] allow them. Bastards.
14th-Aug-2008 07:57 pm (UTC) - Re: I moved ...
BofA likely violated banking regulations in your case. The regulations changed about two years ago, and on a cashier's check I'm pretty sure the maximum hold (given the dollar size) is five business days (it may even be less).

You may have been able to complain to the Comptroller of the Currency, the FDIC, the Fed, or your state's Attorney General on an excessive hold. If my account had that kind of activity regularly, I'd sit down with the bank manager, and if I got no satisfaction I'd change banks immediately.
14th-Aug-2008 08:29 pm (UTC) - Re: I moved ...
I got no satisfaction

I didn't

I'd change banks immediately

I did almost immediately.
14th-Aug-2008 07:59 pm (UTC)
Yes, it's absurd.

But on a foreign (non-US) transaction, the bank will wait until they get positive confirmation that the transaction has cleared. And that's measured in weeks, and is also dependent on hold times that exist on the drawer's account.
14th-Aug-2008 07:45 pm (UTC)
I got a Full Tilt check just before Barge in less than a week, I got one from Stars today, also less than a week.

Pretty sure they were from the same processor, drawn on the same major US bank.

Just saying.
14th-Aug-2008 08:01 pm (UTC)
Stars hasn't been impacted yet (from the forums). There are several posts on this at pocket fives and 2+2, all dealing with Full Tilt.

Unfortunately, I think the reason FT has been impacted and Stars hasn't is more luck than anything else. In the long-run (and here, I think we're talking weeks, not months or years) reliable payment processors in the US will become impossible for the sites to find.
14th-Aug-2008 09:36 pm (UTC)
I just requested a Stars check last night.

-R
15th-Aug-2008 02:01 am (UTC)
Solution: Don't deposit into Full Tilt.

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